November 6, 1942, 2-nd victory

? De Havilland Mosquito or Lockheed Ventura ?

Searches concerning this victory :

progress of the search
3 Last update April 13, 2003
Evaluation quality of information
2

Mosquito declared lost on November 6, 1942 (current result of my works) :
No positive information found this day.

In his book on the JG1, author Eric Mombeek associates Mosquito DK328 / V crew F / LT A.N. BRISTOW, F / LT B.W. MARSHALL with this Heinz KNOKE's victory. In fact the following information proves that it is not the good aircraft.

Message from Hans Nauta Sat Jan 8 04:00:21 2000
POW details

According to a post-war POW register I can add the next details:
F/O A. N. Bristow 101502 RAF
POW number 816 in Sagan III

F/L B. W. Marshall 104775 RAF
POW number 827 in Sagan III
Message from Henk Welting Thu Jan 13 05:58:32 2000

Mosquito DK328/V was not 6-11-42 but one day later...7-11-42. Squadron was 105 Sqdn, attacking ships on the Gironde River.
DK328 attacked the 5,000t Merchant "Elsa Essberger" cruising on the Gironde.
F/Lt A.N. BRISTOW, pilot, and F/Lt B.W. MARSHALL, nav., both PoW-camp L-3.
Regards from Holland - Henk.

KNOKE's "Mosquito" crash location is 70 km in the North of Borkum and Holland, in the North Sea.
Mosquito Number DK328/V, shot down on November 7, 1942 over south-west from France with crew both POW, mentioned by Eric Mombeek in his book on the JG1 can't be Mosquito shot down by KNOKE.

Elements to direct searches :

Concerning day November 6, 1942, KNOKE does not state a bombardment of Berlin but mentions the fact that 2 mosquitos tracked down by German radars flew over the city and suffered the shots of Flak. It is very plausible, even likely, that a mission as that of January 30, 1943 ( first bombardment of BERLIN by Mosquitos, in two waves of 3 aircrafts. They obliged Goering to interrupt the discour during two hours) was prepared by flights of recognition.
If this hypothesis showed itself true, these flights would have been probably made with Mosquito from Photo Recognition Units.
This would explain why Bomber Command didn't mention Mosquito lost on November 6, 1942.

What I still look for :

Hypothesis #1: the claimed aircraft is effectively a Mosquito

Somebody shall be able to confirm the existence of an effectively achieved mission (recognition, bombardment, diversion, etc.) having had for objective Berlin on November 6, 1942 ?

I'm looking for help from experts in Photo Recognition Units (PRU) hoping to find losses in those units on November 6, 1942.

Any help concerning Photo Recognition Units (PRU) with Mosquitos, # of those units, dates of affectation, quantity and serial number of Mosquitos affectés between the middle of 1942 and March, 1943 would be welcome.

Twin-engined planes declared lost on November 6, 1942 (current result of my works) :

Weather report was very bad, also an error of identification was possible.
Did KNOKE effectively intercept the plane returning from Berlin or did hazard place on its trajectory in the fog another twin-engined plane in North of Holland ?

Source : MACR

Serial

Type

Squadron

Code

Reason

Mission / Crash Location

Pilot / Crew

AE784

Ventura I

21Sqn.

YH-

?

Target
Maasluis

F/L J E Harrison POW,
P/O H J Luck POW,
Sgt W J Atkinson KIA (buried in Bergen Op Zoom Cemetery),
F/L C W Hunt POW.

AE848

Ventura II

21Sqn.

YH-

?

Target
Den Helder

Presumed lost off the Dutch coasts

F/O A E K Perry MIA,
P/O L G O Smith MIA,
Sgt N A Gardener MIA (buried in the New Eastern Cemetery at Amsterdam),
P/O R W Neill (RCAF) MIA.
The others are commemorated on thr Runnymede Memorial.

AJ220

Ventura II

21Sqn.

YH-

?

Target
Velsen

F/O D O Brown POW,
F/S B B Shipton KIA (buried in the New Eastern Cemetery at Amsterdam)
F/S R G Rowe KIA (buried in Crooswijk General Cemetery at Rotterdam),
F/S D J Reynolds POW.

Ventura N°AE848 is presumed disappeared off the Dutch coasts.
Lockheed Ventura had excellent performances for time, not far from Mosquito's.
The photo at the head of page shows that a twin-engined plane such as Ventura could be confused with Mosquito in particular in very bad weather reports of November 6, 1942.

Hypothesis : trajectory of Ventura AE848 which ran away after its mission above Den Helder could have been intercepted and have been confused by German radar tracking stations. These systems did not allow in 1942 a precision of guides such as Knoke's story lets appear.

What I still look for :

Hypothesis 2: the claimed twin-engined plane would be a Lockheed Ventura

List of Venturas engaged on November 6, 1942 and in a general way all details concerning this mission and the possible missions of associated diversions

21st Squadron airfield was in Norfolk.

Orders (ORB) of the 21 Squadron and reports to reconstitute schedules and routes of the various planes having survived the mission

List of victories claimed by German pilots on twin-engined planes on November 6, 1942

No other victory claimed by JG1.

One (or more) photo(s) of the crew and of Ventura N ° AE848

- - - Thanks to Jean Secardin for his help - - -

Description of this victory by Heinz Knoke and different information :

Warning !
To facilitate the reading, lines of Heinz Knoke's flightbook, appearing above, were modified with small computing assembly.
If the disposal is not in accordance with the original, the main thing of the information, namely the mission 130 of the 6.11 has no change.

Heinz Knoke Informations

Personal comments

Source

Flightbook, page 8, mission 130

Demerfungen

Abschuß einer
De Havilland Mosquito
bei Q.B.I. 70 km nörde
Borküm

Source I flew for the f... page 78

Date November 6, 1942 This date is clearly identified in Knoke's flightbook above.

Type of claimed plane De Havilland Mosquito

Place of the interception Over North Sea, North of Borkum Islands.

Crash Location North Sea, 70Kms North of Borkum Islands.

RAF
Presumed mission Flight over Berlin.
Heading way home by Bremen crossing the East Friesian Islands.
Recognition or diversion flight over Berlin ?

Schedule 12.00 : report from Division Headquarters : 2 Mosquitoes approching.
Inside of an hour they are reported to be over Berlin, where Flak opens up on them.
Takeoff : 13.30 by Goering order transmitted by Colonel Henschel commanding fighter defences in the North Sea coastal area.
Intercept :13.47.
Landing : 14h14.

Weather report Very bad weather. Rain, fog.
On 12.00 cloud ceiling is down to 100 feet.

Knoke's Unit
2./JG1
Takeoff with WENNECKERS

His aircraft, Bf109 G1, black 1

Description of the fight 13.30...I take off with WENNECKERS... Tommies are heading north-west over the Bremen area.
From past experience they may be expected to cross the East Friesian Islands.
The most recent report gives the position of the Mosquitoes as map reference sector Berta-Quelle-eight, on course three-one-five.
Time : 1347hours.
I am unable to see anything at all ahead. It is maddening.
Base calls : "You should see them now. Try a little to the left."...
A shadow suddenly looms out of the greyness ahead. It is a Mosquito.
He has spotted me also, and whips round to the left in a vertical bank, almost dipping his wing-tip in the sea. Now he twists round to the right. Then he dodges to the left again...
Every time he turns I fire in front of his nose.
We are flying low, very low... at full throttle he follows a steady course of three-two-zero... my good Gustav is just able to maintain the pace...
I want to fire at only the closest possible range. Slowly i draw nearer to my opponent. I shut the radiator flaps, and the range drops to 150 feet. He is squarely in my sights...
The burst catches him in the left engine. The plane is constructed of wood. The wing goes up in flames at once and shears off at the root.
A few seconds later one De Havilland Mosquito vanishes into the green depths of the North Sea. Nothing but a sludge of oil is left on the surface.
KNOKE shot down a plane on November 6, 1942.
Was it a Mosquito?

Bad weather could disrupt identification.
Photo of Ventura above shows that confusion between these two types of twin-engined planes was possible,

"Weather like this makes flying anything but a picnic."

Hypothesis #1: the claimed aircraft is effectively a Mosquito
Somebody shall be able to confirm the existence of an effectively achieved mission (recognition, bombardment, diversion, etc.) having had for objective Berlin on November 6, 1942 ?
I'm looking for help from experts in Photo Recognition Units (PRU) hoping to find losses in those units on November 6, 1942.
Any help concerning Photo Recognition Units (PRU) with Mosquitos, # of those units, dates of affectation, quantity and serial number of Mosquitos affectés between the middle of 1942 and March, 1943 would be welcome.

Serial	Type	Squadron	Code	Reason	Mission / Crash Location	Pilot / Crew
AE784	Ventura I	21Sqn.	YH-	?	Target Maasluis	F/L J E Harrison POW, P/O H J Luck POW, Sgt W J Atkinson KIA (buried in Bergen Op Zoom Cemetery), F/L C W Hunt POW.
AE848	Ventura II	21Sqn.	YH-	?	Target Den Helder Presumed lost off the Dutch coasts	F/O A E K Perry MIA, P/O L G O Smith MIA, Sgt N A Gardener MIA (buried in the New Eastern Cemetery at Amsterdam), P/O R W Neill (RCAF) MIA. The others are commemorated on thr Runnymede Memorial.
AJ220	Ventura II	21Sqn.	YH-	?	Target Velsen	F/O D O Brown POW, F/S B B Shipton KIA (buried in the New Eastern Cemetery at Amsterdam) F/S R G Rowe KIA (buried in Crooswijk General Cemetery at Rotterdam), F/S D J Reynolds POW.

Hypothesis 2: the claimed twin-engined plane would be a Lockheed Ventura
List of Venturas engaged on November 6, 1942 and in a general way all details concerning this mission and the possible missions of associated diversions
21st Squadron airfield was in Norfolk.
Orders (ORB) of the 21 Squadron and reports to reconstitute schedules and routes of the various planes having survived the mission
List of victories claimed by German pilots on twin-engined planes on November 6, 1942
No other victory claimed by JG1.
One (or more) photo(s) of the crew and of Ventura N ° AE848

	Heinz Knoke Informations	Personal comments
Source	Flightbook, page 8, mission 130
Demerfungen	Abschuß einer De Havilland Mosquito bei Q.B.I. 70 km nörde Borküm

Source	I flew for the f... page 78
Date	November 6, 1942	This date is clearly identified in Knoke's flightbook above.
Type of claimed plane	De Havilland Mosquito
Place of the interception	Over North Sea, North of Borkum Islands.
Crash Location	North Sea, 70Kms North of Borkum Islands.
RAF Presumed mission	Flight over Berlin. Heading way home by Bremen crossing the East Friesian Islands.	Recognition or diversion flight over Berlin ?
Schedule	12.00 : report from Division Headquarters : 2 Mosquitoes approching. Inside of an hour they are reported to be over Berlin, where Flak opens up on them. Takeoff : 13.30 by Goering order transmitted by Colonel Henschel commanding fighter defences in the North Sea coastal area. Intercept :13.47. Landing : 14h14.
Weather report	Very bad weather. Rain, fog. On 12.00 cloud ceiling is down to 100 feet.
Knoke's Unit	2./JG1 Takeoff with WENNECKERS	His aircraft, Bf109 G1, black 1
Description of the fight	13.30...I take off with WENNECKERS... Tommies are heading north-west over the Bremen area. From past experience they may be expected to cross the East Friesian Islands. The most recent report gives the position of the Mosquitoes as map reference sector Berta-Quelle-eight, on course three-one-five. Time : 1347hours. I am unable to see anything at all ahead. It is maddening. Base calls : "You should see them now. Try a little to the left."... A shadow suddenly looms out of the greyness ahead. It is a Mosquito. He has spotted me also, and whips round to the left in a vertical bank, almost dipping his wing-tip in the sea. Now he twists round to the right. Then he dodges to the left again... Every time he turns I fire in front of his nose. We are flying low, very low... at full throttle he follows a steady course of three-two-zero... my good Gustav is just able to maintain the pace... I want to fire at only the closest possible range. Slowly i draw nearer to my opponent. I shut the radiator flaps, and the range drops to 150 feet. He is squarely in my sights... The burst catches him in the left engine. The plane is constructed of wood. The wing goes up in flames at once and shears off at the root. A few seconds later one De Havilland Mosquito vanishes into the green depths of the North Sea. Nothing but a sludge of oil is left on the surface.	KNOKE shot down a plane on November 6, 1942. Was it a Mosquito? Bad weather could disrupt identification. Photo of Ventura above shows that confusion between these two types of twin-engined planes was possible, "Weather like this makes flying anything but a picnic."

November 6, 1942, 2-nd victory

? De Havilland Mosquito or Lockheed Ventura ?

progress of the search 3 Last update April 13, 2003 Evaluation quality of information 2

progress of the search
3 Last update April 13, 2003
Evaluation quality of information
2